Split Keyboard Nightmare

[k brown]

I did this Prophet T8 emulation and absolutely beat my brains out trying to give it the proper split keyboard option, but to no avail. I tried everything I could think of with both of these modules I dug out of Spogg's Synthmaker's Greatest Hits.

(keyboard split module).fsm

(37.45 KiB) Downloaded 1012 times

keyboard split.fsm

(2.43 MiB) Downloaded 1013 times

I don't know if it's the fact that my project has two Preset Managers in it (first time I tried that!), or what the prob is. The Ruby-based one worked fine in simpler test schematics, but I just failed to get it to work in this schem. The other one works OK, but triggers the envelopes in both split zones.

So, without the split keyboard option here's T-forTwo.

T-forTwo copy.jpg (79.45 KiB) Viewed 17201 times

The Prophet T8 was essentially two Prophet 5s (with polyphony of each reduced to 4) with extensive velocity and aftertouch controls, and an excellent weighted piano-style keyboard. The two 4-voice engines could be played singly, with keyboard splits or layered together. The two were sent to separate left and right outputs, or a summed mono out. So the plugin represents two complete synths, each with their own preset manager so any combination of two presets can be used - layered together in mono or panned in stereo.
I tried to make this as accurate as possible and the only major 'upgrade' is the addition of a third oscillator in each.
Twenty presets (mostly from the T8 factory preset patch sheets) are included in each 'Voice'; several are in pairs (suffixed 'I' and 'II') and meant to be played together in layers or splits.

If anyone cares to take a shot at getting this to have the keyboard split option, that would be great to have that feature, but I'm bald as a cue ball tearing my hair out over it. Utter defeat.

[k brown]

Here's the schem.

T-forTwo.fsm

(2.04 MiB) Downloaded 999 times

And the schem for my failed split kybd attempt, if anyone cares to root around in it (I've gotten much neater with my schematics).

T-forTwo_s.fsm

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When the I/II balance control is fully CW or CCW, the unused 'Voice' is muted, cutting CPU in half, and it's panel is darkened to make the GUI less overwhelming and with less eye-strain.

T-forTwo_small_Ionly copy.jpg (163.53 KiB) Viewed 17200 times

Two other interesting features of the T8 - it had an ADR envelope option, where the Sustain stage is eliminated and the envelope goes from the end of the Decay stage immediately to the Release stage - great for percussive envelopes and pianos. The only other synth I've ever heard of with this feature was the Octave Voyetra. Spogg and tula crafted such an envelope for me to use in my emu of it -- thanks again guys., it appears again here.
The other cool feature is the 'Second' Release', which was a programmable alternate EG Release time that could be activated by a footswitch, like a piano sustain pedal. I've implemented this with a panel knob to set the Second Release time, to be switched by a MIDI footswitch or alternately, by the mod wheel, p-bend up or p-bend down (when any of these is moved off zero).
Since many folks don't have velo keyboards (and even fewer with aftertouch), I've made those targets alternately controllable by the mod wheel, footpedal, breath controller, p-bend up or p-bend down.

[Spogg]

I’ll have a look at this soon(ish) Kevin.

You say there are 2 preset managers but this isn’t allowed. There must only ever be one. The preset manager code interfaces with the DAW for storing and retrieving song-based parameters, automation and so on. I don’t know how the DAW or plugin would “know” which preset manager to deal wIth.

If the synth works fully correctly in a DAW with 2 preset managers I would be very surprised. What happens if you tweak a few parameters on either manager’s synth section then save the song? Does it recall the edit correctly when you re-load the song?

Cheers

Spogg

[k brown]

Well, what I did was name the 'P' wireless outputs in the second Preset Manager - "II", then renaming each control's 'P' wireless inputs the same. The ones in the first PM were left unnamed as stock.
Your question about DAW behavior is a good one; I usually test my stuff with VSTHost, which is not a DAW; the only DAW I have is Tracktion, which I've never used to create a 'song'. I just record my Ambient noodlings, effects and all entirely within VSTHost, so I'm not sure I'd even know how to test what you say. Everything seems to work OK in VSTHost; I can set each 'half' of the synth to any patch using it's associated PM, but i suppose it wouldn't be possible to save any changes made to either/both of the selected presets as it's own compposite preset - so maybe the whole thing's a bone-headed idea. I just couldn't figure out how to replicate the T8's ability to have each 'engine' (they called 'Left' and 'Right' because they were connected to the synth's left and right out jacks) have it's own set of presets and to combine them in any way. I guess it would just have to be done by doing this as a single 'engine' and just have two instances open in order to combine presets. But then how does a DAW save a 'song' from two instances of the same synth, which have the same PMs? Also, do DAWs themselves have the ability to do keyboard splits; assigning two different synths to each half of the keyboard?

[k brown]

Here'e the T8 manual, in case it's helpful, or any of my descriptions are unclear.

Prophet T8 Operation Manual.pdf.zip

(7 MiB) Downloaded 1028 times

[Spogg]

I just spent some time on this, so I can tell you for sure the dual program manager thing doesn’t work I’m afraid.

I loaded the non-splitting synth and turned one filter to max and the other to min. I saved the song but, when I re-loaded it, the filter settings for the song were not retained, as expected.

Then I pasted both synth sections’ I and II preset files together in Word and did an alphabetical sort (attached). This showed me that many parameter names were duplicated between the synth sections I and II. So this could never work correctly. Now, it might just be that if you added a “preset properties” module to synth II at the top level of synth II, to change all the parameter strings therein, it would work, but I strongly doubt it. You could try though, and I could re-test it for you. Of course you would have to re-do the presets for synth II for the new parameter strings (names).

I did test the key-split version and it appeared to work but I kept getting crashes and stream lock-up. I don’t know the synth well enough to trouble shoot this but it may be related to the Ruby key-split; I just don’t know.

I would highly recommend using Cockos Reaper as a test DAW. It’s free and after the evaluation period you just get a nag screen for a bit. It’s actually a great DAW and not expensive. Many of us here use it. In Reaper you can use the JS extension “MIDI Note Filter” and it’s dead easy to set the note range for any track you insert it in (prior to the VSTi synth of course). I tested it just and it works fine.

I hope this helps and doesn’t cause too many tears to stream down your face.

Cheers

Spogg

[k brown]

Thanks for all your analysis, kind sir.

I'm just going to re-do this with a single PM and redo the presets with the Dual patches baked in, and to play with different combos of presets, folks can just load two instances; practical in this case as the second synth voice doesn't pull any CPU when it's de-activated (I think I'll also do an alternate version with only one synth so two instances can be easily 'stacked' on-screen for doing different preset combos and DAW key splitting).

My hunch that the splits not working due to the two PMs was apparently not the case - I tried it with another schematic (my emulation of the Yamaha CS70M, that also had keyboard split feature) that has only one and still couldn't get it to work.

Thanks again - onward!

[kortezzzz]

When talking about keyboard splitting (which I use a lot), we talk about 2 separate modules that work as individual blocks. The non-splited block and the splited block. When one is in charge, the second should be killed completely, or you'll end up with stack keys when switching from one mode to another. What I did in the attached schematic is building those 2 blocks that being "killed" and "revived" when pressing the "split key" button. If you'll dive in to the split module in my attached schematic, you'll clearly see that the splitting feature works correctly now. But there is still problem with your synth, probably because of using the 2 PMs, so the audio often stacks here.

[k brown]

Thanks k - I see the problem you describe and your solution is very elegant. I'm checking it out now with a version that has a single PM.

Thank you for checking it out.

Update:
Got this rejiggered split module incorporated into the single-Preset Manager version and danged if I can find anything wrong with it - works just as it should. Hats off to kortezzzz!

Just refining the presets for this version and will post when done.

Yay !

[k brown]

A note to anyone wanting to use kortezzzz's split module - it may be obvious to those smarter than I, but it took me hours to figure out that Pitch Bend and Mod Wheel modules have to be connected directly to MIDI in, not after the split module!